Curse

Hanok Odbrook · Mar 02, 2009, 02:23 PM // 14:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lourens

I realy like this cats have 9 lives to so why cant we get that

Yes from the point where you where born again (1327 time lolwhut?) and after 1337000xp you will get rank 3

Well, actually our characters are much better off than cats - they have unlimited lives and regardless of the number of deaths will always be back for more. One simply loses progression in the Survivor track upon death.

I don't think either LS or LDOA are perfect by any means, and would not have designed them exactly the same way if it were my decision. If anything, I would like to see a change where a Barry Bonds type asterisk is added to the display title instead of the (3) to indicate a death recorded after maxing the track, and make LDOA achievable by vanquishing all zones in Pre-Searing rather than death-leveling to level 20.

But the real point here is that no one is looking beyond this one title at the bigger picture. If we change LS to make it achievable regardless of the number of current recorded deaths, then we simply must also allow alternative means of achieving LDOA for all characters (including non-Tyrians).

What about all those players who would have liked to have gotten LDOA on their Proph chars had they known that the title would at some point come into being? What about all those players whose main char started in Cantha or Elona, and only recently picked up Proph to complete their collection? Aren't they being robbed of a title as well?

And this goes beyond just the title tracks as well. What about the B-day miniatures? I lost count of how many chars I deleted and recreated in the first year of the game. Had I known that upon reaching their first birthday, they would receive a mini-pet, I almost certainly would have kept them around. Where's my compensation for all those minis lost simply because the presents weren't made known until much later?

Or how about the rare and contest minis? I am sure that there are many players who for one reason or another did not have a chance to earn one of these prizes. Should not everyone then be given an opportunity to pick up the minis? What about the Pre-order items, or any of the special promotion items available only in selected regions of the world?

What about the festival hats for the first holiday events (like Halloween and Wintersday). I missed out on both the first final events for these holidays because I hadn't known at the time that I had to be in a certain outpost at a certain time. Had I known this, I almost certainly would have taken some time away from the family to pick up the related festival hats. Should I not now be given the opportunity to get those hats? Or how about the Day of the Tengu festival? I pre-ordered Factions and everything, but had to work that day and because of other commitments couldn't participate in the head start event, even though I rightfully qualified for participation. Should it not be within my rights to be given a way to participate and earn the Tengu mask now?

This here is that proverbial can of worms we got going. Whether right or wrong, those on this forum who think that they should get a second shot at a title must also then make allowances for all those other things that players should get second shots at as well. I think its time for everyone to move on and just get back to enjoying the actual playing of the game. I know I have - I don't give a second thought to any of those things above, because neither the acquisition nor the lack thereof takes one bit of that enjoyment away from me. I certainly don't need LS on every character to enjoy this game more. I certainly don't need a Tengu mask to make myself feel complete. So I think its time we all got over it, and started thinking about how to improve the game play of GW1 and GW2 to ensure that these great games continue to thrive in the years to come. A single PvE title track certainly won't do that.

Hanok Odbrook

MithranArkanere · Mar 02, 2009, 05:38 PM // 17:38

Oh... allowances for second shots...

Let's see...
Retry missions... anytime.
Map travel... anytime.
Change attribute... anytime.
Mod equipment... anytime... if the equipment has slots for it.
Create PvP characters... anytime.

The only things players can no longer make are things like:
- Acquire CE and preorders again. And they should be able.
- Acquire festival masks of past festivals. For the Lion Mask they can, for the rest they should.
- Replay removed quests. And some of them like "kill rotscale" and the Day of Tengu quests should come back.
- And... hm... eh... That's all.

GW is the game with less 'regrets' ever. In most cases, It doesn't matter if you have trouble doing something, you can retry later anytime you want. It should not be 'in most cases', it should be ALWAYS.

Hanok Odbrook · Mar 03, 2009, 02:14 PM // 14:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

The only things players can no longer make are things like:
- Acquire CE and preorders again. And they should be able.
- Acquire festival masks of past festivals. For the Lion Mask they can, for the rest they should.
- Replay removed quests. And some of them like "kill rotscale" and the Day of Tengu quests should come back.
- And... hm... eh... That's all.

Actually, don't forget about the mini-pets and the Pre-Faction "warm-up" quests that were in Kryta for a few weeks. And it shouldn't just be the CE and pre-order items, but all special promotional items. While we are at it, we should also be allowed to take non-Tyrian characters to Pre-Searing as well - they already can time travel (going from one continent to another), so why not? Plus, we should let all characters be able to participate in all quests, after all, why should a campaign or profession choice limit which quests we should be able to enjoy?

Hanok Odbrook

Copenhagen Master · Mar 03, 2009, 08:37 PM // 20:37

Yea I would like to see my old Prophecies char at least get a chance to try Sur title somehow or be nice to somehow get a chance to retry LDoA title without creating a new char like a time warp thing or something hehe

Motoko · Mar 04, 2009, 03:01 AM // 03:01

If survivor was considered account wide, LDoA would also have to be considered account wide.

Making prophecies characters have a title advantage alone with LDoA and then survivor later is an imbalance in the PvE area.

It won't matter, all titles will be considered account wide for GW2.

Marverick · Mar 04, 2009, 04:39 AM // 04:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by laksa and curry

/ not signed. Just start grinding and stop commplaining. I am working on my second gwamm, there will be a third a forth. So have fun do not only play or grind with 1 character.

So sorry that I enjoy my life.

/signed for the token idea, but the new character should be of the same profession

I don't agree with the restrictions. However boxing should be made so that knocked out = death for all characterss.

monolito · Mar 04, 2009, 09:34 PM // 21:34

/signed

Too bad old Tyrians ain't got the possiblity to get Legendary Surv. They could even raise the XP cap to legendry s.

Seraphim Angel · Mar 05, 2009, 01:41 AM // 01:41

not signed/ this is a 2 year old thread!! GWAMM is easier than it was 2 years ago it can take a serious player just a few months to get GWAMM. R3 survivor takes a matter of hours. Make a new character and just grind it out.

Hanok Odbrook · Mar 05, 2009, 11:32 AM // 11:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seraphim Angel

not signed/ this is a 2 year old thread!! GWAMM is easier than it was 2 years ago it can take a serious player just a few months to get GWAMM. R3 survivor takes a matter of hours. Make a new character and just grind it out.

Well, it's just a testament to the determination of those that find this subject is important to them - not really a bad thing.

However, you don't even need to grind the title. As I mentioned previously, I re-rolled an LS character 9 months ago and simply replayed through the campaigns. I had him back to LS within a couple of months, and this with only an average of a couple hours a day to play.

What bothers me is the fact that most, if not all, players here use Proph characters as an excuse for a change, and the argument "Well, I if I knew there would be a title ... yada yada yada" when that is actually an invalid point. I already mentioned a player who had LS on an original character, and I myself was able to take a test character to Kryta and hit Level 15 before dying on an old beta account long before Factions was released.

I am not philosophically opposed to this idea (or simply creating a new Survivor-like title to appease those who cannot achieve it on a particular character), but as I already mentioned, if we are to allow a second shot for this title, then we must allow for a lot of other second shots as well (see my previous posts for a list).

After all, if we are to allow everyone a pretty easy shot at getting Survivor on their characters, we should then allow every player a pretty easy shot at getting every mini-pet currently created in the game - even the uberrares, right Yawgmoth?

Hanok Odbrook

Rhinala · Mar 05, 2009, 12:50 PM // 12:50

I dont really care about titles, for me the forming of strategy, teamplay, challenge are what make this game so great.
Personally i don't like the survivor title cos it a stressful title and it make the player 1 bad team player, causing them to map in mid fight when thy are going to get killed, the question is if anet will allow players to have multiple tries on this title, how will the teamplay be.

Arduin · Mar 05, 2009, 02:05 PM // 14:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

After all, if we are to allow everyone a pretty easy shot at getting Survivor on their characters, we should then allow every player a pretty easy shot at getting every mini-pet currently created in the game - even the uberrares, right Yawgmoth?

Difference is, you can still acquire every miniature on any character you wish (to a certain extent of course). With the Survivor Title, not so much.

And only the Survivor title gives you some benefit, namely a rank towards GWAMM. Temporary quests are just for added fluff, it would be nice to be able to do them again, but it's not like you can get anything tangible from them. Noticing how the endgame of GW mostly revolves around titles, I think the ability to get another shot at this title would be greatly appreciated by a vast part of the community.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gladiator Motoko

It won't matter, all titles will be considered account wide for GW2.

I'm not playing this game 'for' GW2. I'm playing GW1.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seraphim Angel

not signed/ this is a 2 year old thread!! GWAMM is easier than it was 2 years ago it can take a serious player just a few months to get GWAMM. R3 survivor takes a matter of hours. Make a new character and just grind it out.

It's not about this title being hard to get or GWAMM being hard to get, it's about all those characters that were made before the titles update and thereby foregoing a chance for Survivor. Sure, like Hanok Odbrook showed us, there are characters who did get the title, because the player decided to not let that character die. But the thing is, most people stick to the character they first made, making it into their main. And that character is the one you'll learn to play the game with. And that involve dying, sometimes as soon as the little PvP arena just before you exit Pre-sear.

Yawgmoth · Mar 05, 2009, 07:45 PM // 19:45

@Hanok Odbrook

The survivor for old pre-Factions characters case is unique and can't be compared to any other thing you try to.

You should think of LS and LDoA as alternatives, so a character can have one of the titles, but failing to do either leaves that character permanently flawed. But a Factions/Nightfall character isn't permanently flawed because of no LDoA chance - at the moment of that character's creation Survivor title already existed so it was up to the player to play wisely and not go for a little PvP for example.

I don't want to make the title easier, it's already easy. I just demand a FAIR CHANCE for everyone, that one fair chance for characters that never had it. And if you read my post #461 you'd see I'm suggesting options to make that 1 survivor chance actually much harder than the title is for a new character that has all continents and imba content available.

Comparisons to minipets that can't be obtained anymore or things like that is just absurd - they can just be bought, price doesn't matter. Survivor for permanently flawed characters can't just be bought no matter what price.

Punjabi · Mar 05, 2009, 08:16 PM // 20:16

The survivor title already is too easy, If they made it so anyone could get the title as long as you did not die between any level it would be way to easy. I could easily map to Droknars or Gunnars and powerlevel through level 20 and have it done in a day.

Its an easy title anyway its not like it adds much to your e-peen at the end of the day anyway.

NecroticChanter · Mar 05, 2009, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Punjabi

The survivor title already is too easy, If they made it so anyone could get the title as long as you did not die between any level it would be way to easy. I could easily map to Droknars or Gunnars and powerlevel through level 20 and have it done in a day.

Its an easy title anyway its not like it adds much to your e-peen at the end of the day anyway.

hehe, I agree... don't change it. Just get to level 20 then dwarven boxing with scrolls to legendary.

Yawgmoth · Mar 05, 2009, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Survivor is not the problem, having to abandon your old favorite character you had for 4 years and redoing everything on a new one is.

That's why there's no need for any change to the title for new characters, but there definately has to be a change giving characters who never had the chance that one chance. That won't affect the title's questionable value, but will make it fair for the old loyal fanbase.

Hanok Odbrook · Mar 06, 2009, 12:10 AM // 00:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arduinna

Difference is, you can still acquire every miniature on any character you wish (to a certain extent of course). With the Survivor Title, not so much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

Comparisons to minipets that can't be obtained anymore or things like that is just absurd - they can just be bought, price doesn't matter. Survivor for permanently flawed characters can't just be bought no matter what price.

What about the uberrares? Those minis for all intents and purposes are unobtainable by the general populace. In regards to obtaining all the other ones, what is the cost? A lot of time spent grinding/farming and a lot of gold at the end, if you are lucky enough to find the ones you need for sale to begin with. What is the cost of re-rolling a character to achieve LS? A lot of time spent however you wish to gain XP - including grinding/farming or playing normally.

But again, if we are talking fair chances here - then should not those who deleted characters prior to the B-day minis be given a fair chance to obtain that amount lost for free? In such a case I am owed at least a dozen free mini-pets - I wonder how many of them would have been the purp or gold ones?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arduinna

And only the Survivor title gives you some benefit, namely a rank towards GWAMM. Temporary quests are just for added fluff, it would be nice to be able to do them again, but it's not like you can get anything tangible from them. Noticing how the endgame of GW mostly revolves around titles, I think the ability to get another shot at this title would be greatly appreciated by a vast part of the community.

Perhaps to some, temp quests and the like are more than just fluff - perhaps to them, the Survivor title is just as much fluff as you think the temp quests are, and by rights, those who wish to pursue them should be given that opportunity if we are to give that same opportunity to those who wish for Survivor. As for something tangible, I do recall them offering rewards - be it in the form of XP (accumulating for skill points), Faction in the terms of the warm-up ones, and what have you. Exactly what in-game benefit does Survivor bring?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

You should think of LS and LDoA as alternatives, so a character can have one of the titles, but failing to do either leaves that character permanently flawed. But a Factions/Nightfall character isn't permanently flawed because of no LDoA chance - at the moment of that character's creation Survivor title already existed so it was up to the player to play wisely and not go for a little PvP for example.

Well then, we should be giving as much attention to LDOA as we are to Survivor, after all, how many players left Pre-Searing with deaths prior to level 20 and would have wanted a shot at least of LDOA. If its a case of some sort of flaw (though neither title is needed for GWAMM), then any and all players should be given a chance to have another shot at LDOA on their mains as well (and to make it fair, we then ought to offer that chance for non-Tyrians; and to make it fair for the ubercompletionists, allow them the ability to acquire both titles on a single character).

Again, it gets back to the basic fundamentals of game play - to avoid failure. Death is failure, therefore one should always play to avoid failure. Even a noob in Pre-Searing, as I once was, can learn enough to avoid death right outside the gates of Ascalon. The existence, or lack thereof, of the Survivor title would have had no bearing on my decisions or game play at the time, including PvP arenas. Perhaps I am fortunate enough to have only one character's first death be attributable to lag/disconnect - all others, including my very first was due to a dumb mistake on my part. As for that other character - I re-rolled, and she's still going strong in Pre at this point.

Hanok Odbrook

PS to Yawg - your proposal while interesting seems way too complex, and would involve too much coding to be worth the effort I would imagine. I think a far simpler approach would be simply to create another title with the same XP reqs. Call it Psuedo-Survivor or whatever, which would allow all characters a chance at getting it for GWAMM.

Yawgmoth · Mar 06, 2009, 05:50 AM // 05:50

@Hanok

omg.
Why bring uberrare minis here again? They're something completelly totally different, they weren't meant for everyone as they were limited in their nature. So nobody can say he actually 'missed' one as he'd most likely not win that special contest or random giveaway anyway. Titles however, especially easy ones like survivor, are meant for everyone and aren't limited.
Oh, and you also bring characters deleted before BDay presents introduced here... that's also irrelevant - BDay minis can just be bought and they aren't even expensive. There's no way to track back how many chars you've deleted in 2005 so stop with that nonsense.
Only the alive ones matter.
And the oldest alive got majorly screwed on the survivor title resulting in a unrecoverable -1 to possible maxed titles on them, permanent penalty to old dedicated fans without their fault. Because going to PvP is a player's fault when it was heavily encouraged from the lowest levels? Or think of a very cautious player who really cared about not dying and actually got over 1,338k XP without dying back in 2005, but then died before titles got added to game - his character also gets unrecoverable -1!

And don't bring LDoA again... irrelevant... You should think of LS as the basic title available for everyone and LDoA as a very special alternative to it, giving you the same +1 maxed title, just having a different name. There's no need for giving it to non-Tyrians or allowing any second chance for characters who left Pre before lv20, stop offtopic nonsense already.

And my idea from post #461 isn't as complicated as it sounds from description, it was thought up to be the easiest to implement way for a fair one chance at survivor for old chars that never had that chance. I believe that the additional suggested restrictions (like disallowing leaving Prophecies territory for example) are harder to do than the basic idea of having a token item customized to the old character and changing it's state when put in inventory of a new Prophecies character of matching profession and below certain level. The point of the idea was also not to cheapen the title or GWAMM at all.

If you don't have a 4 years old favorite character then the issue doesn't affect you and you may not understand what some players feel, but you shouldn't oppose a small change that would give them that single one shot at this title.

Arduin · Mar 06, 2009, 12:04 PM // 12:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

Exactly what in-game benefit does Survivor bring?

I don't care about benefits linked to a title. I just want the chance to get that title on my main. The 'benefit' for me would not having to grind my way to max Kurzick/Luxon, Treasure Hunter, Wisdom, Lucky or Unlucky to achieve GWAMM.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

Again, it gets back to the basic fundamentals of game play - to avoid failure. Death is failure, therefore one should always play to avoid failure. Even a noob in Pre-Searing, as I once was, can learn enough to avoid death right outside the gates of Ascalon.

Death isn't failure in Guild Wars, because you can be resurrected. There isn't even a penalty for dying in pre-sear, so labeling death as 'failure' is a long stretch to me.

Hanok Odbrook · Mar 06, 2009, 01:00 PM // 13:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

Why bring uberrare minis here again? They're something completelly totally different, they weren't meant for everyone as they were limited in their nature. So nobody can say he actually 'missed' one as he'd most likely not win that special contest or random giveaway anyway.

Not really different at all if we are talking in terms of fairness. You feel it is not fair that you can not get the title on your older characters because you had no motivation to keep the character alive prior to the introduction of the title. It is not any less fair that players in the game cannot get an uberrare because they don't have access or abilities related to the means to get them. If an uberrare is to be used as a reward for an art contest, that pretty much eliminates anyone who is not very artistic from the ability to get one. Heck I would consider that even less fair than not being able to get the Survivor title as it relates to a natural ability that cannot be changed as opposed to a playstyle choice.

In terms of being limited in nature - guess what, that's exactly what the LDOA and LS titles are meant to be as well. They were designed to be different from the normal grind titles and limited to those who choose to play the game in a certain style. So nobody can say they actually missed their chance as most likely their playstyle wouldn't have given them the chance to get the title anyway. Heck, my playstyle choice is more in line with getting the title, and I have still only one character who was able to get to the first tier before dying, and one who was finally able to get the final tier - twice, as I mentioned in one of my previous posts. In fact it is harder for me in those terms as I avoid common means of farming, and simply play through the games, so I need to take these characters deep into each campaign to gain the top tier.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

And don't bring LDoA again... irrelevant... You should think of LS as the basic title available for everyone and LDoA as a very special alternative to it, giving you the same +1 maxed title, just having a different name. There's no need for giving it to non-Tyrians or allowing any second chance for characters who left Pre before lv20, stop offtopic nonsense already.

It is absolutely not off topic. Nearly every single player in this thread brings up that term of fairness. It is not any less fair to have missed a chance at LDoA because no one knew about the title just as all those here QQ about if they only knew that a Survivor title would be introduced they would have changed their playstyle to have kept their old characters alive to meet the requirements. So if we are to allow those players a second shot at Survivor on those characters in terms of fairness, then we must absolutely show that same type of fairness to all those other players who would have gone for LDoA had they known about the title, and also for those players who opted to choose Factions or Nightfall as their first campaigns and have spent as much play time and care on their mains as you did on your Tyrian mains - it would only be fair to do so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

If you don't have a 4 years old favorite character then the issue doesn't affect you and you may not understand what some players feel, but you shouldn't oppose a small change that would give them that single one shot at this title.

I actually have a couple characters that I started back in the final beta event that are my ubermains on the primary account I use now - the oldest characters I have. Many of my other Tyrians were created within a few days/weeks of the debut of Prophecies, so I am very much vested in these characters. I simply have chosen to see both LDOA and LS for the titles that they are, and have gone on to attempt to achieve LS on newer characters.

Again, I am not philosophically opposed to allowing some means for these older characters to achieve a representative title (again, it would be a simple matter of creating a new title track - Psuedo-Survivor, as I mentioned that would have the same parameters, but reset every time a character died, thereby not eliminating the track entirely, but forcing that character to have to start from the beginning again). What I am opposed to is players using the argument of fairness for changing the current title, but then not including all the other things in the game (such as LDoA, equal chances for all minis, promotional items, special quests, et al.) that should be allowed just as equally in terms of fairness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arduinna

I don't care about benefits linked to a title. I just want the chance to get that title on my main. The 'benefit' for me would not having to grind my way to max Kurzick/Luxon, Treasure Hunter, Wisdom, Lucky or Unlucky to achieve GWAMM.

Death isn't failure in Guild Wars, because you can be resurrected. There isn't even a penalty for dying in pre-sear, so labeling death as 'failure' is a long stretch to me.

You're the one who brought up the subject of Survivor giving some benefit in your previous post (which also mentioned fluff quests). I simply wanted to know what that benefit was compared to the fluff of the quests. To me, titles are just fluff, but at least those quests I missed out on - either in terms of the timing of when they were active, or simply my choice of character profession/continent provides me with the benefits of getting a few more XP points, other related rewards (if any), and just the simple fact of being able to have extra play time experience by going through them.

So in terms of fairness, if we are to allow you to achieve LS on your main to avoid having to grind another title, and enjoy that character a bit more, it is equally fair to allow players to achieve LDoA on any of their characters and to participate in those quests they missed out on so they too can equally enjoy those characters a little bit more.

How is it a stretch to term death as a failure? Isn't that why it's called a Death Penalty? Just because Pre-Searing was very lenient in the penalty phase does not mean that it is any less of a failure. Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't remember any quest or mission in any of the campaigns (let alone Pre), that allowed success through dying (except for the LDOA title, of course). So, in order to succeed and proceed in the game, you have to avoid death in order to complete the various parameters of the game play elements. Dying is a hinderance, and does not meet the parameters for success in these elements, therefore death equates to failure, regardless of any penalty (or lack thereof) that is imposed.

Perhaps it is because I come from the old school of gaming where death often resulting in the loss of XP, levels, items, or even the characters themselves, but I don't think I ever played a game where I felt dying was an OK thing to do, or something I shouldn't really put much thought into. Perhaps that is why I play every game to succeed - i.e. to avoid death, because thus far, every game has required it in one form or another to finish it. And I simply see LS as a true penalty for death in the game, that was simply implemented a bit late.

Hanok Odbrook

Arduin · Mar 06, 2009, 01:42 PM // 13:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

You're the one who brought up the subject of Survivor giving some benefit in your previous post (which also mentioned fluff quests). I simply wanted to know what that benefit was compared to the fluff of the quests. To me, titles are just fluff, but at least those quests I missed out on - either in terms of the timing of when they were active, or simply my choice of character profession/continent provides me with the benefits of getting a few more XP points, other related rewards (if any), and just the simple fact of being able to have extra play time experience by going through them.

Okay, fair enough. I'd like to have another attempt at that title again, you'd rather have another attempt at those quests.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

So in terms of fairness, if we are to allow you to achieve LS on your main to avoid having to grind another title, and enjoy that character a bit more, it is equally fair to allow players to achieve LDoA on any of their characters and to participate in those quests they missed out on so they too can equally enjoy those characters a little bit more.

I don't care about LDoA on my main. Would be a nice discussion though, yet this thread is to discuss changes to the Survivor Title.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

How is it a stretch to term death as a failure? Isn't that why it's called a Death Penalty? Just because Pre-Searing was very lenient in the penalty phase does not mean that it is any less of a failure. Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't remember any quest or mission in any of the campaigns (let alone Pre), that allowed success through dying (except for the LDOA title, of course). So, in order to succeed and proceed in the game, you have to avoid death in order to complete the various parameters of the game play elements. Dying is a hinderance, and does not meet the parameters for success in these elements, therefore death equates to failure, regardless of any penalty (or lack thereof) that is imposed.

Perhaps it is because I come from the old school of gaming where death often resulting in the loss of XP, levels, items, or even the characters themselves, but I don't think I ever played a game where I felt dying was an OK thing to do, or something I shouldn't really put much thought into. Perhaps that is why I play every game to succeed - i.e. to avoid death, because thus far, every game has required it in one form or another to finish it. And I simply see LS as a true penalty for death in the game, that was simply implemented a bit late.

I remember countless occasions were me dying actually saved the mission. When battles got bad, I 'sacrificied' myself, so my playmates and henchies could run away, wait until the smoke has cleared, get back to me and resurrect. After that we would be on our merry way again. To me, that's an example of a success through dying, not because I died, but because I could use this game mechanic to save the party (and consequently not fail the mission).

Yet, I've never played a game where death actually mattered. If you fall in a pit in a Mario game, tough luck, just try again. That's how I treated GW too. No, I'm not rushing in to get me killed intentionally, but if me dying actually turns out beneficial, I won't hesitate to get myself killed.

However, would I have known about an impeding title I could obtain without dying once, I'm sure my stance would've been entirely different concerning 'taking one for the team'.